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Need expert Godin/Seagull insight... possible fakery SOLVED

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    Post by optofonik on Apr 21, 2019 2:24:39 GMT -5

    It was suggested by someone at the AGF that I post this here.

    I know this is a long post but a this point I'm utterly mystified. I need Sherlock Holmes.

    The label inside my Seagull Excursion indicates it's an Isys+ model but the physical attributes don't jibe. This makes me wonder if it has been misrepresented by the previous owner who sold it to SA from whom I subsequently bought it. I sent Godin a comprehensive set of pictures. I also spoke to them on the phone when I gave them the serial number. Since then we've corresponded via email but so far they haven't been able to definitively identify the guitar as being a factory Isys+ guitar or not

    I began to suspect something wasn't right after doing some research and noticing the placement of what I believed to be the original cutout for the Fishman battery compartment/output jack. The guitar was modded by the previous owner to separate the battery compartment and output jack. The cutout appeared to have been re-used for the stand-alone battery compartment while the input jack was moved to the strap button. A plastic plate was used to install the new standalone battery compartment which is a bit smaller than the Fishman combo.

    What I've thought to be the original cutout until today is located above the strap button and I have never seen any Seagull or other Godin sub-brand acoustic with this orientation. Every one I have seen before this one has the cutout below the strap button. If not for the label indicating "Isys+" I would think this was a non-Isys+ model that someone added a preamp to.

    Thing is, that would mean someone went to the trouble of swapping the original label with the one that's in there now; that seems a bit of a stretch.

    I took a flashlight to the soundhole earlier today and took a good look at how the Isys+ preamp was installed; the interior mounting ring was not lined up and it initially appeared only one screw was actually attached to the ring. When the ring slipped off of the preamp's flange I realized it wasn't attached at all. The excess wiring "holder" is no longer attached to anything inside either, it's just hanging, and the adhesive left behind appears to be nothing more than "earthquake putty".

    Since the piezo is an under-bridge installation I also checked the rear of the bridge for a gap and sure enough there is a 0.2mm gap. This leads me to believe that perhaps the piezo wasn't installed correctly or low quality adhesive was used when re-gluing the bridge after installation. Another thing I wondered about was the damaged battery compartment hinge. It dawned on me to check where the strap lays. Sure enough, since the battery compartment is above the end pin, the guitar strap lays right over the battery compartment and puts undue pressure on it.

    This appears to be amateur hour stuff. Godin's Seagull line might be considered "lower to medium budget" but I played several S6s before buying one a few years ago and I can tell you this is not how they appeared to roll. The Seagulls I've played may have had some tonal differences but their fit and finish were not sloppy.

    Why anyone would go to so much trouble to conjure up a new label for an inexpensive guitar is beyond me, though.

    My other acoustic is a Seagull, the aforementioned S6, and I'm a total fan. So, this all started out as a seemingly great deal for a really well made laminate camping guitar, albeit a bit larger than I would have preferred, with the added bonus of being an electric-acoustic. If someone went to the trouble of replacing the original label with a counterfeit after a botched preamp install, though, I'm really troubled. If the label is indeed counterfeit there is no way to really know if it could be a stolen guitar even. All 'round there are a lot of things that point to potential bad juju.

    As a stated at the start, I'm utterly mystified. Beyond the shoddy preamp installation though, and more importantly perhaps, I keep coming back to what seems to be a counterfeit label and that for sure would be bad juju. I just don't know what to think at this point. I'd like to be able to feel good about keeping it especially if the issues aren't as problematic as they appear to me.

    If you got this far you're a trooper and I really appreciate it. Here's some pics...

    Last Edit: May 1, 2019 12:49:39 GMT -5 by optofonik

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    Post by Derick on Apr 21, 2019 3:12:20 GMT -5

    optofonik ,

    First welcome to the cabin.

    Sorry can't be to much help, and sure someone else in the cabin will have better information.

    Thanks for posting the photos, looks a nice guitar and in good condition, my only negative point is the photo taken from the back of the bridge, looks like the bridge may be lifting.
    As this guitar was one of Seagulls lower grade guitars, can't see someone taking the trouble to make it a counterfeit.
    if it plays well and you are happy with it just play and enjoy the little beauty

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    Post by optofonik on Apr 21, 2019 3:55:50 GMT -5

    Derick Avatar

    optofonik ,

    First welcome to the cabin.

    Sorry can't be to much help, and sure someone else in the cabin will have better information.

    Thanks for posting the photos, looks a nice guitar and in good condition, my only negative point is the photo taken from the back of the bridge, looks like the bridge may be lifting.
    As this guitar was one of Seagulls lower grade guitars, can't see someone taking the trouble to make it a counterfeit.
    if it plays well and you are happy with it just play and enjoy the little beauty

    Thanks for the "welcome". I'm really happy to have found what appears to be a go-to Godin forum. The back of the bridge does indeed have a 0.2mm gap and I understand it would be at least $100.00 to rehabilitate it. That would turn this into a $350.00+ campfire/beater guitar.

    I don't think the guitar as a whole is counterfeit, just the label. Maybe after the botched preamp install the person printed out a fake label using a jpg of one they found online in order to get more money when they sold it? Honestly, it really is a mystery which is why it was suggested I come here.

    I think the tell-tale will be the placement of the battery box. If there was ever a Seagull Excusion that had the battery compartment/output jack installed above the end pin at the factory then this may very well be a legit Isys+. I just can't beleive Godin would do such a disappointing job installing the preamp, piezo, and wiring, though. My S6 has no bridge lift whatsoever and I don't baby it; it sits in a stand at the ready.

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    Post by optofonik on Apr 21, 2019 3:56:48 GMT -5

    optofonik Avatar

    Derick Avatar

    optofonik ,

    First welcome to the cabin.

    Sorry can't be to much help, and sure someone else in the cabin will have better information.

    Thanks for posting the photos, looks a nice guitar and in good condition, my only negative point is the photo taken from the back of the bridge, looks like the bridge may be lifting.
    As this guitar was one of Seagulls lower grade guitars, can't see someone taking the trouble to make it a counterfeit.
    if it plays well and you are happy with it just play and enjoy the little beauty

    Thanks for the "welcome". I'm really happy to have found what appears to be a go-to Godin forum. The back of the bridge does indeed have a 0.2mm gap and I understand it would be at least $100.00 to rehabilitate it. That would turn this into a $350.00+ used campfire/beater guitar. From info I've found online they sold new for $350.00.

    I don't think the guitar as a whole is counterfeit, just the label. Maybe after the botched preamp install the person printed out a fake label using a jpg of one they found online in order to get more money when they sold it? Honestly, it really is a mystery which is why it was suggested I come here.

    I think the tell-tale will be the placement of the battery box. If there was ever a Seagull Excusion Isys+ (or any Seagull model) that had the battery compartment/output jack installed above the end pin at the factory then this may very well be a legit Isys+. I just can't beleive Godin would do such a disappointing job installing the preamp, piezo, and wiring, though. My S6 has no bridge lift whatsoever and I don't baby it; it sits in a stand at the ready.

    Here's a pick of the Excursion with a some paper slid underneath where the bridge is lifting...


    I can't slide anything underneath my S6 bridge, it's tight.

    Last Edit: Apr 21, 2019 4:28:49 GMT -5 by optofonik

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    Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 9:04:28 GMT -5

    optofonik , welcome to the cabin! As to your conundrum with the Excursion: I'm by no means a Godin expert, but in looking at my Seagull 2007 Performer as well as my 2013 Artist Studio, the battery compartment in both is on the bass (upper) side of the strap button while the strap button is also the input jack, just as in the photos of your Excursion -- so that appears to be standard Godin placement. However, they both have the QII system installed, not a Fishman Isys+.

    The picture below is of my Performer.

    Last Edit: Apr 21, 2019 12:11:46 GMT -5 by Deleted

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    Post by optofonik on Apr 21, 2019 13:06:32 GMT -5

    sleigh Avatar

    optofonik , welcome to the cabin! As to your conundrum with the Excursion: I'm by no means a Godin expert, but in looking at my Seagull 2007 Performer as well as my 2013 Artist Studio, the battery compartment in both is on the bass (upper) side of the strap button while the strap button is also the input jack, just as in the photos of your Excursion -- so that appears to be standard Godin placement. However, they both have the QII system installed, not a Fishman Isys+.

    The picture below is of my Performer.

    You are the man!!! You totally made my morning. I feel so much better about the guitar now. The sloppy install would account for a previous owner replacing the original QII with a Fishman and that makes me feel better about Godin; I knew they wouldn't do a sloppy job. The slight bridge lift is the only thing I need to address with Sam Ash now.

    I looked all over the internet for a picture like this and couldn't find a single one. In the process I think I may have stumbled across the end of the internet; it's a dark place. ;)

    Seriously, the idea that someone would switch out the label seemed really far fetched but without evidence like you just posted I would suspect the karma surrounding this guitar (I realize some folks think that kind of stuff is silly but I believe in good and bad "energy").

    I think now I probably paid a little more than I should have for the guitar ($250.00), especially considering the bridge lift, but stumbling upon a laminate Seagull for camping seemed like winning the lottery at the time.

    Thanks again for solving this mystery for me, I also gotta give some bigups to Blueser100 over at AGF for suggesting I come here.

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    Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 14:49:33 GMT -5

    optofonik Avatar

    sleigh Avatar

    optofonik , welcome to the cabin! As to your conundrum with the Excursion: I'm by no means a Godin expert, but in looking at my Seagull 2007 Performer as well as my 2013 Artist Studio, the battery compartment in both is on the bass (upper) side of the strap button while the strap button is also the input jack, just as in the photos of your Excursion -- so that appears to be standard Godin placement. However, they both have the QII system installed, not a Fishman Isys+.

    The picture below is of my Performer.

    You are the man!!! You totally made my morning. I feel so much better about the guitar now. The sloppy install would account for a previous owner replacing the original QII with a Fishman and that makes me feel better about Godin; I knew they wouldn't do a sloppy job. The slight bridge lift is the only thing I need to address with Sam Ash now.

    I looked all over the internet for a picture like this and couldn't find a single one. In the process I think I may have stumbled across the end of the internet; it's a dark place. ;)

    Seriously, the idea that someone would switch out the label seemed really far fetched but without evidence like you just posted I would suspect the karma surrounding this guitar (I realize some folks think that kind of stuff is silly but I believe in good and bad "energy").

    I think now I probably paid a little more than I should have for the guitar ($250.00), especially considering the bridge lift, but stumbling upon a laminate Seagull for camping seemed like winning the lottery at the time.

    Thanks again for solving this mystery for me, I also gotta give some bigups to Blueser100 over at AGF for suggesting I come here.

    Thanks for the compliments, but not so fast. Seagull uses/used lots of different pickups in its various models and the QII system was only used on the upper end of the line. When I look up Excursions Nat SG Isys+ on google, I get results like this -- and looking at Sweetwater's pictures tells me your label is perfectly legit and that the Excursions came stock with the Fishman Isys+ system, which is what your pictures show.

    However, my bet is that it's not a poor installation by the factory but rather abuse by its former owner that caused the problems you're seeing inside the body with the wiring and the battery compartment -- though I suppose an incompetent original install is a possibility too.

    The bridge lifting could stem from humidity issues or other problems, but if CTGull tells you it's a minor thing, I'd believe him -- he knows what he's talking about when it comes to guitar repairs.

    EDITED TO ADD:  Here's another link to an old Sweetwater page that shows the same model of guitar you have. Again, if you look at the pics, you'll see that the pickup system is the same as the one you have in your pictures.

    Last Edit: Apr 21, 2019 21:21:27 GMT -5 by Deleted

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    Post by optofonik on Apr 21, 2019 15:01:11 GMT -5

    CTGull Avatar

    I wouldn't worry about the bridge lift, that is very minor.

    The saddle isn't original.

    While I like a good mystery, I know nothing about the Isys system.

    The Excursion SG was only available in 2014. As has been said, it was a low end model, the only series with a laminated wild cherry top, like the Minstrel/Menestrel's of the mid 80's to early 90's. 2015 to 2016 they made the Excursion models with a solid spruce top. Then the series was discontinued. Yours is definitely wild cherry.

    Thanks for the additional insight! Very good to know about the bridge lift. Interesting to discover they were only made for one year, also, which explains the dearth of info and pictures online. I even spoke with someone at Godin who wasn't aware that they ever made a laminate Seagull. I specifically wanted a laminate for camping and travel so I felt particularly fortunate to stumble across a Seagull laminate. I wonder if the aftermarket saddle is an upgrade that would account for the rock solid intonation; it was spot on in the store two weeks ago and remains so.

    If I may ask, what do you think a fair price for the guitar would be? I paid $250.00 out the door which is only $100.00 less than they sold for new. I was considering this when I discovered the bridge lift. If the bridge had needed repairing that would have put it a the original new price. It still needs some rehab, though. I'll want SA to address the preamp control module's loose wiring and the interior mounting ring slipping off and hanging on the wiring.

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    Post by optofonik on Apr 21, 2019 15:05:03 GMT -5

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    optofonik , CTGull , is our resident guitar repair expert, and if he says the bridge lift is not worrying, I wouldn't worry about it. However, if because of it you can get Sam Ash to give you a couple of bucks off, so much the better! And welcome to the Cabin!

    He sounds like it!

    I'll still address the bridge lift, though, when I bring it back to SA tomorrow. As I mentioned to CTGull, I'll definitely want the preamp module's loose wiring and mounting ring addressed at the very least. At only $100.00 less than the original price new I think it's reasonable to expect these things to be taken care of.

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    Post by Anteriormente Pura Vida! on Apr 21, 2019 21:18:29 GMT -5

    Visit me at AGF and Eastman forums

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    Post by optofonik on Apr 21, 2019 23:44:06 GMT -5

    sleigh Avatar

    optofonik Avatar

    You are the man!!! You totally made my morning. I feel so much better about the guitar now. The sloppy install would account for a previous owner replacing the original QII with a Fishman and that makes me feel better about Godin; I knew they wouldn't do a sloppy job. The slight bridge lift is the only thing I need to address with Sam Ash now.

    I looked all over the internet for a picture like this and couldn't find a single one. In the process I think I may have stumbled across the end of the internet; it's a dark place. ;)

    Seriously, the idea that someone would switch out the label seemed really far fetched but without evidence like you just posted I would suspect the karma surrounding this guitar (I realize some folks think that kind of stuff is silly but I believe in good and bad "energy").

    I think now I probably paid a little more than I should have for the guitar ($250.00), especially considering the bridge lift, but stumbling upon a laminate Seagull for camping seemed like winning the lottery at the time.

    Thanks again for solving this mystery for me, I also gotta give some bigups to Blueser100 over at AGF for suggesting I come here.

    Thanks for the compliments, but not so fast. Seagull uses/used lots of different pickups in its various models and the QII system was only used on the upper end of the line. When I look up Excursions Nat SG Isys+ on google, I get results like this -- and looking at Sweetwater's pictures tells me your label is perfectly legit and that the Excursions came stock with the Fishman Isys+ system, which is what your pictures show.

    However, my bet is that it's not a poor installation by the factory but rather abuse by its former owner that caused the problems you're seeing inside the body with the wiring and the battery compartment -- though I suppose an incompetent original install is a possibility too.

    The bridge lifting could stem from humidity issues or other problems, but if CTGull tells you it's a minor thing, I'd believe him -- he knows what he's talking about when it comes to guitar repairs.

    EDITED TO ADD:  Here's another link to an old Sweetwater page that shows the same model of guitar you have. Again, if you look at the pics, you'll see that the pickup system is the same as the one you have in your pictures.

    LOL, "not so fast", indeed.

    Thethird photo in the second linkonly confounds things more because the battery compartment isnot located in the same spot as on mine. That darn battery compartment position throws a spanner into the works; the one that is used with the Isys+ is a combo battery compartment/output jack. Seems to me that such a combo would never have been installed above the end pin because the guitar cable, even a right angled one, would have prevented use of a strap without damaging the cable or the guitar.

    A closer look at the fourth photo of inside the soundhole reveals "Isyst" printed on the label but the preamp control module itself is actually branded "Isyst+"; mine has "Isys+" printed on the label and the control module.

    It would seem that Godin isn't always on top of the fine details after all, at least on this model sample; things appear to be a bit loosy goosy. That could be another contributing factor to it's short run. Maybe also why the Godin rep I spoke to over the phone disavowed any knowledge of "laminate Seagulls". I suspect the "quality assurance" recording of our conversation self-destructed in a puff of smoke. :|:) :D (rofl)

    I know some folks are confounded by my poring over details of a "cheap guitar" but all my guitars fall into the cheap category. My attention to detail, however, has insured that they are all the cream of the cheap crop; the picks of the litter, and as a result, display a higher standard of fit and finished than many more expensive guitars that haven't been scrutinize by their owners.

    I'm also just a bit fascinated with this guitar for no particular reason.

    EDIT: A bit of trivia I learned through all this is that both S&P and Norman had versions of the Seagull "Excursion" that were almost aesthetically identical except for having solid spruce tops, different headstock shapes (of course), and the model names "Trek" and "Expedition", respectively.

    Last Edit: Apr 22, 2019 13:44:16 GMT -5 by optofonik

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    Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2019 8:21:25 GMT -5

    optofonik Avatar

    LOL, "not so fast", indeed.

    Thethird photo in the second linkonly confounds things more because the battery compartment isnot located in the same spot as on mine. That darn battery compartment position throws a spanner into the works; the one that is used with the Isys+ is a combo battery compartment/output jack. Seems to me that such a combo would never have been installed above the end pin because the guitar cable, even a right angled one, would have prevented use of a strap without damaging the cable or the guitar.

    A closer look at the fourth photo of inside the soundhole reveals "Isyst" printed on the label but the preamp control module itself is actually branded "Isyst+"; mine has "Isys+" printed on the label and the control module.

    It would seem that Godin isn't always on top of the fine details after all, at least on this model sample; things appear to be a bit loosy goosy. That could be another contributing factor to it's short run. Maybe also why the Godin rep I spoke to over the phone disavowed any knowledge of "laminate Seagulls". I suspect the "quality assurance" recording of our conversation self-destructed in a puff of smoke. :|:) :D (rofl)

    I know some folks are confounded by my poring over details of a "cheap guitar" but all my guitars fall into the cheap category. My attention to detail, however, has insured that they are all the cream of the cheap crop; the picks of the litter, and as a result, display a higher standard of fit and finished than many more expensive guitars that haven't been scrutinize by their owners.

    I'm also just a bit fascinated with this guitar for no particular reason.

    EDIT: A bit of trivia I learned through all this is that Norman had a version of the Seagull "Excursion" that was almost aesthetically identical except for having a solid spruce top, a different headstock shape (of course), and the name "Expedition".

    Speaking of "loosy goosy" -- I notice that the first link in my reply went to the current 12-string model of the Excursion, not the 6-string model. Oops...

    But none of the Sweetwater photos I can see (either of the current model or the discontinued one that's your guitar model) show the battery compartment at all. You can see the side of the bottom strap button (which to me looks like it's also the input jack, since it's rather bulky and wide for just a strap button), and you can see 'bumps' to either side that are the guitar stand holding it for the pics, but they don't show a shot aimed directly at the bottom of the guitar. The third photo in the second link—at least when I click on it—shows the Isys+ control unit mounted on the side of the guitar, but not the battery compartment.

    However, if you're correct in that the 'factory' Excursions had a combo battery compartment & input jack, you're right that mounting it near the strap button on the bass side of the guitar's bottom would be problematical for the guitar cable.

    And you're also right that the label you have in your guitar doesn't match the label in the second Sweetwater link, as bit of the label we can see says "Isyst" and yours says "Isys+".  So hmm...